The University of Cologne canceled a guest professorship with the philosophy professor from The New School. In this interview, she speaks about Germany dividing between “Good Jews” and “Bad Jews,” her politicization in the civil rights movement, and her time in an Israeli kibbutz.

科隆大學取消了這位新學院哲學教授的客座教授職位。在這次訪談中,她談到了德國的“好猶太人”和“壞猶太人”之分、她在民權運動中的政治化經歷以及她在以色列基布茲的生活。


Q : You just got fired from a guest professorship at the University of Cologne because you signed the Philosophy for Palestine statement, which condemns Israel’s “unfolding GENO....” and “system of apartheid.” Can you tell us what happened?

問:您剛剛被科隆大學解雇了客座教授職位,因為您簽署了“巴勒斯坦哲學”聲明,該聲明譴責以色列“正在發生的種族滅絕”和“種族隔離制度”。您能告訴我們發生了什么嗎?

A : I was invited to Cologne last July. I signed the statement in November. Just last week, even though the statement had been live for a long time, I got an email from Professor Andreas Speer telling me the rector had expressed concern. I thought this was very inappropriate. I was invited on the basis of my scholarly work, which has nothing to do with my views on Israel/Palestine. I wrote back to say that there are many different views, and that there is a lot of pain on all sides — including for me as a Jew. But I emphasized there was no disagreement about the importance of free, open, and respectful discussion, as the rector had put it. My lectures have nothing to do with Israel/Palestine. Within 24 hours, I received an email from the rector: Since I was not willing to renounce my views, he had no choice but to cancel the professorship.

答:我是去年7月被邀請到科隆的。在11月簽署了聲明。就在上周,盡管聲明已經發布了很長時間,我還是收到了Andreas Speer教授的一封電子郵件,告訴我校長對此表示了擔憂。我認為這非常不合適。我因我的學術工作而被邀請,與我對以色列/巴勒斯坦問題的看法無關。我回信說,我們有很多不同的觀點,對各方來說都很痛苦,包括作為猶太人的我。但我強調,對于校長所說的自由、開放和相互尊重的討論的重要性,大家并無異議。我的講座與以色列/巴勒斯坦無關。結果還不到24小時,我就收到了校長的電子郵件:由于我不愿意放棄我的觀點,他別無選擇,只能取消我的教授職位。

Q : You’ve worked at different German universities over the years. Has this ever come up before?

問:多年來,您在不同的德國大學工作過。以前遇到過這種情況嗎?

A : Never, but then again, I haven’t been as outspoken as some of my colleagues. The current situation in Gaza is so extreme that I felt I did need to speak out.

答:從來沒有,但話說回來,我不像我的一些同事那樣直言不諱??赡壳凹由车木謩菀呀浄浅O端,我覺得我確實有必要說些什么出來。

Q : A few months ago it was revealed that a private lecturer at the same university was at a secret Nazi meeting discussing plans to deport millions of people. The university announced a months-long “investigative process” about his status, which has been going on for several months. Was there such a process with you?

問:幾個月前,同一所大學(科隆大學)的一名私人講師被揭露參加了一個秘密納粹會議,會議討論了驅逐數百萬人的計劃。大學宣布對他的身份進行長達數月的“調查”,也確實調查了幾個月了。你有被這樣調查過嗎?

A : No, it was just a handful of emails, and all over within 24 hours. They’re saying this professorship was just an “honor” and not an academic appointment. But this is bogus. I was sexted by a group of professors, and if the rector overrides them, he is infringing on academic freedom. It’s also an attack on political freedom. The message it sends to everybody in Germany is: if you express certain views, your job is in danger.

答:沒有,只有幾封郵件,24小時內就結束了。他們說這個教授職位只是一種“名譽”,而不是學術任命。但這是謊言。我是被一群教授選中的,如果校長推翻了他們的決定,那他就是在侵犯學術自由。這也是對政治自由的侵犯。它向德國的每個公民傳達的信息是:如果你表達了某些觀點,你的工作就有危險。

Q : Anyone with views to the left of center could be kicked out of the universities — a dream for right-wing politicians. This is why many academics have protested, including from Germany.

問:任何持中間偏左觀點的人都該被踢出大學--這是右翼政客的夢想。這就是包括德國許多學者在內的學者們提出抗議的原因。

A : Right. And the sad part is that Germany claims to be taking responsibility for Jewish people because of the Holocaust. But then these measures are directed against — not only, but also — Jewish intellectuals and artists. There’s a very restricted idea in Germany about the “Good Jews” you should be protecting, and the “Bad Jews” you can repress. I would like to say to the German public sphere: We are all Jews, and don’t equate Germany’s responsibility to us with supporting everything the State of Israel does.

答:沒錯??杀氖?,德國聲稱會因為當年的大屠殺而對當今的猶太人負責。但這些措施卻不僅對猶太知識分子和藝術家負責了,而且還開始針對他們。在德國有一種非常狹隘的觀念,即你應該保護的是“好猶太人”,而你可以鎮壓的是“壞猶太人”。我想對德國公共領域說:我們都是猶太人,不要把德國對我們的負責跟支持以色列所做的一切等同起來。

Q : This is not the first case in recent months. Jewish people like Judith Butler, Masha Gessen, and Candice Breitz have had awards revoked and shows cancelled.

問:這不是最近幾個月發生的第一起案件。朱迪斯-巴特勒、瑪莎-格森和坎迪斯-布賴茨等猶太人被取消了獎項和演出。(三人均對以色列表達了批評態度)

A : I very much admire them — I’m proud to find myself in their company, even if that wasn’t my intention. We are very inconvenient to people who want to restrict a real, open discussion of what is going on in Palestine. When Jews like us say we have different views about Israel, that’s an inconvenience, and maybe even a threat.

答:我非常欽佩他們--我很自豪能與他們為伍,盡管這并不是我的本意。對于那些想要阻礙真實、公開地討論巴勒斯坦問題的人來說,我們是很容易造成麻煩的。當像我們這樣的猶太人說我們對以色列有不同看法時,這就是一種麻煩,甚至可能是一種威脅。

Q : How did your biography affect your views?

問:您的履歷對您的觀點有何影響?

A : I come from an assimilated family that was not very religious at all. My grandparents left Europe in the early 20th century, before the rise of fascism. As a junior high school student, I became engaged in the civil rights movement. In those days, Baltimore was a legally segregated city with Jim Crow laws. African Americans could not eat at the same restaurants or swim in the same swimming pools. I gravitated quickly to the desegregation struggle. I had a classic ’68 generation itinerary, from civil rights to the Vietnam war to SDS [Students for a Democratic Society] to feminism, and so on and so forth. I was never particularly involved with Israel.

答:我來自一個完全沒有宗教信仰的歸化家庭。我的祖父母在20世紀初離開了歐洲,那時法西斯主義還沒有興起。初中時,我參與了民權運動。當時,巴爾的摩是一個法律上實行種族隔離的城市,有《吉姆-克勞法》。非裔美國人不能在同一家餐館吃飯,也不能在同一個游泳池游泳。我很快就被打破種族隔離的斗爭所吸引。我有一個典型的“68一代”行程,從民權到越戰,再到SDS(學生爭取民主社會組織),再到女權主義,等等等等。我從未特別參與針對以色列的活動。
(譯者注:吉姆·克勞法 (Jim Crow laws) 泛指1876年至1965年間美國南部各州以及邊境各州對有色人種(主要針對非洲裔美國人,但同時也包含其他族群)實行種族隔離制度的法律。68一代主要指上世紀60年代末歐美各國的學生運動、民權運動的主體,西方主流給的定性是偏左派思潮,這個詞基本上也等同于激進。)

原創翻譯:龍騰網 http://www.top-shui.cn 轉載請注明出處


A : I spent six months in a kibbutz in the immediate aftermath of the ’67 war. There was a call for volunteers to come and help with the harvest. I thought a kibbutz had something to do with socialism, but I was rather quickly disillusioned, because I encountered an anti-Arab racism that was very similar to the anti-Black racism in the United States. There was an Arab village across the road, and the kibbutz would not allow the Arab children to use the swimming pool. I thought: “Oh my god, this again?”

答:67年戰爭剛結束時,我在基布茲待了六個月。當時有人號召志愿者來幫助收割。我以為基布茲與社會主義有關,但很快我就幻滅了,因為我遇到了反阿拉伯種族主義,這與美國的反黑人種族主義非常相似。路對面有一個阿拉伯村莊,基布茲不允許阿拉伯兒童使用游泳池。我當時想“天啊,又要來一遍了?”。
(譯者注:基布茲是以色列的一種集體社區,過去主要從事農業生產,現在也從事工業和高科技產業。)

A : That was my close encounter with Israel. When I returned to the United States, I threw myself into the panoply of New Left political engagements, and I did not focus on Palestine.

答:這就是我與以色列的親密接觸?;氐矫绹?,我投身于各種新左派政治活動中,并沒有關注巴勒斯坦問題。

Q : Both in the United States and in Germany, the governments are giving strong support to Israel, even if the majority of the population is critical. There is a lot of repression at universities against Palestine solidarity — even when it’s coming from Jewish students. Do the two countries feel similar?

問:無論是在美國還是在德國,政府都大力支持以色列,即使大多數民眾對此持批評態度。大學里有很多針對聲援巴勒斯坦的鎮壓行動--即使是來自猶太學生的聲援。在德美兩國的感受相似嗎?

A : We face our own forms of McCarthyism here in the United States. But it’s not as severe because we have succeeded in staging more of a public debate. In previous years, the voices of Palestinians and the solidarity movement were swept under the rug. But now they are being heard and we have a more balanced debate. I hope something like that will emerge in Germany as well.

答:在美國,我們也面臨著麥卡錫主義。但沒有那么嚴重,因為我們成功地進行了更多的公開辯論。前些年,巴勒斯坦人和聲援運動的聲音被掩蓋了。但現在,他們的聲音被聽到了,我們有了一場更加平衡的辯論。我希望德國也能出現類似的情況。

Q : Here in the U.S. we have a large and politically active Jewish population — much larger than in Germany. For decades, the most prominent Jewish voices have been straightforwardly pro-Israel. But in recent years, organizations like Jewish Voice for Peace and Not In Our Name have let Jewish people come out as critics of Israeli occupation. Bernie Sanders is the most prominent Jewish politician. He had been a strong supporter of Israel, but he has changed — lots of people are changing. Some people thought he was too slow to call for a permanent ceasefire, but now he has.

問:在美國,我們有大量活躍于政治領域的猶太人--比德國多得多。幾十年來,最著名的猶太人一直直截了當地支持以色列。但近年來,“猶太和平之聲”和“不以我們的名義”等組織讓猶太人站出來批評以色列的占領。伯尼-桑德斯是最著名的猶太政治家。他一直是以色列的堅定支持者,但他變了--很多人也都變了。有些人認為他在呼吁永久?;鸱矫鎰幼鞯锰?,但現在他已經做到了。
原創翻譯:龍騰網 http://www.top-shui.cn 轉載請注明出處


A : Pro-Israel forces like AIPAC are losing control of the narrative. And now, with the carnage in Gaza, the voices of critical Jews have been amplified. In Germany, in contrast, everybody is talking about Jews, but not with us.

答:支持以色列的力量,如AIPAC(美國以色列公共事務委員會),正在失去對敘事的控制?,F在,隨著加沙大屠殺的發生,批評猶太人的聲音被放大了。在德國,與此相反,每個人都在談論猶太人,但不是跟我們談。