The University of Cologne canceled a guest professorship with the philosophy professor from The New School. In this interview, she speaks about Germany dividing between “Good Jews” and “Bad Jews,” her politicization in the civil rights movement, and her time in an Israeli kibbutz.

科隆大學(xué)取消了這位新學(xué)院哲學(xué)教授的客座教授職位。在這次訪談中，她談到了德國(guó)的“好猶太人”和“壞猶太人”之分、她在民權(quán)運(yùn)動(dòng)中的政治化經(jīng)歷以及她在以色列基布茲的生活。


Q : You just got fired from a guest professorship at the University of Cologne because you signed the Philosophy for Palestine statement, which condemns Israel’s “unfolding GENO....” and “system of apartheid.” Can you tell us what happened?

問(wèn)：您剛剛被科隆大學(xué)解雇了客座教授職位，因?yàn)槟炇鹆恕鞍屠账固拐軐W(xué)”聲明，該聲明譴責(zé)以色列“正在發(fā)生的種族滅絕”和“種族隔離制度”。您能告訴我們發(fā)生了什么嗎？

A : I was invited to Cologne last July. I signed the statement in November. Just last week, even though the statement had been live for a long time, I got an email from Professor Andreas Speer telling me the rector had expressed concern. I thought this was very inappropriate. I was invited on the basis of my scholarly work, which has nothing to do with my views on Israel/Palestine. I wrote back to say that there are many different views, and that there is a lot of pain on all sides — including for me as a Jew. But I emphasized there was no disagreement about the importance of free, open, and respectful discussion, as the rector had put it. My lectures have nothing to do with Israel/Palestine. Within 24 hours, I received an email from the rector: Since I was not willing to renounce my views, he had no choice but to cancel the professorship.

答：我是去年7月被邀請(qǐng)到科隆的。在11月簽署了聲明。就在上周，盡管聲明已經(jīng)發(fā)布了很長(zhǎng)時(shí)間，我還是收到了Andreas Speer教授的一封電子郵件，告訴我校長(zhǎng)對(duì)此表示了擔(dān)憂。我認(rèn)為這非常不合適。我因我的學(xué)術(shù)工作而被邀請(qǐng)，與我對(duì)以色列/巴勒斯坦問(wèn)題的看法無(wú)關(guān)。我回信說(shuō)，我們有很多不同的觀點(diǎn)，對(duì)各方來(lái)說(shuō)都很痛苦，包括作為猶太人的我。但我強(qiáng)調(diào)，對(duì)于校長(zhǎng)所說(shuō)的自由、開(kāi)放和相互尊重的討論的重要性，大家并無(wú)異議。我的講座與以色列/巴勒斯坦無(wú)關(guān)。結(jié)果還不到24小時(shí)，我就收到了校長(zhǎng)的電子郵件：由于我不愿意放棄我的觀點(diǎn)，他別無(wú)選擇，只能取消我的教授職位。
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Q : You’ve worked at different German universities over the years. Has this ever come up before?

問(wèn)：多年來(lái)，您在不同的德國(guó)大學(xué)工作過(guò)。以前遇到過(guò)這種情況嗎？

A : Never, but then again, I haven’t been as outspoken as some of my colleagues. The current situation in Gaza is so extreme that I felt I did need to speak out.

答：從來(lái)沒(méi)有，但話說(shuō)回來(lái)，我不像我的一些同事那樣直言不諱?？赡壳凹由车木謩?shì)已經(jīng)非常極端，我覺(jué)得我確實(shí)有必要說(shuō)些什么出來(lái)。

Q : A few months ago it was revealed that a private lecturer at the same university was at a secret Nazi meeting discussing plans to deport millions of people. The university announced a months-long “investigative process” about his status, which has been going on for several months. Was there such a process with you?

問(wèn)：幾個(gè)月前，同一所大學(xué)（科隆大學(xué)）的一名私人講師被揭露參加了一個(gè)秘密納粹會(huì)議，會(huì)議討論了驅(qū)逐數(shù)百萬(wàn)人的計(jì)劃。大學(xué)宣布對(duì)他的身份進(jìn)行長(zhǎng)達(dá)數(shù)月的“調(diào)查”，也確實(shí)調(diào)查了幾個(gè)月了。你有被這樣調(diào)查過(guò)嗎？

A : No, it was just a handful of emails, and all over within 24 hours. They’re saying this professorship was just an “honor” and not an academic appointment. But this is bogus. I was sexted by a group of professors, and if the rector overrides them, he is infringing on academic freedom. It’s also an attack on political freedom. The message it sends to everybody in Germany is: if you express certain views, your job is in danger.

答：沒(méi)有，只有幾封郵件，24小時(shí)內(nèi)就結(jié)束了。他們說(shuō)這個(gè)教授職位只是一種“名譽(yù)”，而不是學(xué)術(shù)任命。但這是謊言。我是被一群教授選中的，如果校長(zhǎng)推翻了他們的決定，那他就是在侵犯學(xué)術(shù)自由。這也是對(duì)政治自由的侵犯。它向德國(guó)的每個(gè)公民傳達(dá)的信息是：如果你表達(dá)了某些觀點(diǎn)，你的工作就有危險(xiǎn)。

Q : Anyone with views to the left of center could be kicked out of the universities — a dream for right-wing politicians. This is why many academics have protested, including from Germany.

問(wèn)：任何持中間偏左觀點(diǎn)的人都該被踢出大學(xué)--這是右翼政客的夢(mèng)想。這就是包括德國(guó)許多學(xué)者在內(nèi)的學(xué)者們提出抗議的原因。

A : Right. And the sad part is that Germany claims to be taking responsibility for Jewish people because of the Holocaust. But then these measures are directed against — not only, but also — Jewish intellectuals and artists. There’s a very restricted idea in Germany about the “Good Jews” you should be protecting, and the “Bad Jews” you can repress. I would like to say to the German public sphere: We are all Jews, and don’t equate Germany’s responsibility to us with supporting everything the State of Israel does.

答：沒(méi)錯(cuò)?？杀氖牵聡?guó)聲稱會(huì)因?yàn)楫?dāng)年的大屠殺而對(duì)當(dāng)今的猶太人負(fù)責(zé)。但這些措施卻不僅對(duì)猶太知識(shí)分子和藝術(shù)家負(fù)責(zé)了，而且還開(kāi)始針對(duì)他們。在德國(guó)有一種非常狹隘的觀念，即你應(yīng)該保護(hù)的是“好猶太人”，而你可以鎮(zhèn)壓的是“壞猶太人”。我想對(duì)德國(guó)公共領(lǐng)域說(shuō)：我們都是猶太人，不要把德國(guó)對(duì)我們的負(fù)責(zé)跟支持以色列所做的一切等同起來(lái)。

Q : This is not the first case in recent months. Jewish people like Judith Butler, Masha Gessen, and Candice Breitz have had awards revoked and shows cancelled.

問(wèn)：這不是最近幾個(gè)月發(fā)生的第一起案件。朱迪斯-巴特勒、瑪莎-格森和坎迪斯-布賴茨等猶太人被取消了獎(jiǎng)項(xiàng)和演出。（三人均對(duì)以色列表達(dá)了批評(píng)態(tài)度）

A : I very much admire them — I’m proud to find myself in their company, even if that wasn’t my intention. We are very inconvenient to people who want to restrict a real, open discussion of what is going on in Palestine. When Jews like us say we have different views about Israel, that’s an inconvenience, and maybe even a threat.

答：我非常欽佩他們--我很自豪能與他們?yōu)槲?，盡管這并不是我的本意。對(duì)于那些想要阻礙真實(shí)、公開(kāi)地討論巴勒斯坦問(wèn)題的人來(lái)說(shuō)，我們是很容易造成麻煩的。當(dāng)像我們這樣的猶太人說(shuō)我們對(duì)以色列有不同看法時(shí)，這就是一種麻煩，甚至可能是一種威脅。

Q : How did your biography affect your views?

問(wèn)：您的履歷對(duì)您的觀點(diǎn)有何影響？

A : I come from an assimilated family that was not very religious at all. My grandparents left Europe in the early 20th century, before the rise of fascism. As a junior high school student, I became engaged in the civil rights movement. In those days, Baltimore was a legally segregated city with Jim Crow laws. African Americans could not eat at the same restaurants or swim in the same swimming pools. I gravitated quickly to the desegregation struggle. I had a classic ’68 generation itinerary, from civil rights to the Vietnam war to SDS [Students for a Democratic Society] to feminism, and so on and so forth. I was never particularly involved with Israel.

答：我來(lái)自一個(gè)完全沒(méi)有宗教信仰的歸化家庭。我的祖父母在20世紀(jì)初離開(kāi)了歐洲，那時(shí)法西斯主義還沒(méi)有興起。初中時(shí)，我參與了民權(quán)運(yùn)動(dòng)。當(dāng)時(shí)，巴爾的摩是一個(gè)法律上實(shí)行種族隔離的城市，有《吉姆-克勞法》。非裔美國(guó)人不能在同一家餐館吃飯，也不能在同一個(gè)游泳池游泳。我很快就被打破種族隔離的斗爭(zhēng)所吸引。我有一個(gè)典型的“68一代”行程，從民權(quán)到越戰(zhàn)，再到SDS（學(xué)生爭(zhēng)取民主社會(huì)組織），再到女權(quán)主義，等等等等。我從未特別參與針對(duì)以色列的活動(dòng)。
（譯者注：吉姆·克勞法 (Jim Crow laws) 泛指1876年至1965年間美國(guó)南部各州以及邊境各州對(duì)有色人種（主要針對(duì)非洲裔美國(guó)人，但同時(shí)也包含其他族群）實(shí)行種族隔離制度的法律。68一代主要指上世紀(jì)60年代末歐美各國(guó)的學(xué)生運(yùn)動(dòng)、民權(quán)運(yùn)動(dòng)的主體，西方主流給的定性是偏左派思潮，這個(gè)詞基本上也等同于激進(jìn)。）

A : I spent six months in a kibbutz in the immediate aftermath of the ’67 war. There was a call for volunteers to come and help with the harvest. I thought a kibbutz had something to do with socialism, but I was rather quickly disillusioned, because I encountered an anti-Arab racism that was very similar to the anti-Black racism in the United States. There was an Arab village across the road, and the kibbutz would not allow the Arab children to use the swimming pool. I thought: “Oh my god, this again?”

答：67年戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)剛結(jié)束時(shí)，我在基布茲待了六個(gè)月。當(dāng)時(shí)有人號(hào)召志愿者來(lái)幫助收割。我以為基布茲與社會(huì)主義有關(guān)，但很快我就幻滅了，因?yàn)槲矣龅搅朔窗⒗N族主義，這與美國(guó)的反黑人種族主義非常相似。路對(duì)面有一個(gè)阿拉伯村莊，基布茲不允許阿拉伯兒童使用游泳池。我當(dāng)時(shí)想“天啊，又要來(lái)一遍了？”。
（譯者注：基布茲是以色列的一種集體社區(qū)，過(guò)去主要從事農(nóng)業(yè)生產(chǎn)，現(xiàn)在也從事工業(yè)和高科技產(chǎn)業(yè)。）
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A : That was my close encounter with Israel. When I returned to the United States, I threw myself into the panoply of New Left political engagements, and I did not focus on Palestine.

答：這就是我與以色列的親密接觸。回到美國(guó)后，我投身于各種新左派政治活動(dòng)中，并沒(méi)有關(guān)注巴勒斯坦問(wèn)題。

Q : Both in the United States and in Germany, the governments are giving strong support to Israel, even if the majority of the population is critical. There is a lot of repression at universities against Palestine solidarity — even when it’s coming from Jewish students. Do the two countries feel similar?

問(wèn)：無(wú)論是在美國(guó)還是在德國(guó)，政府都大力支持以色列，即使大多數(shù)民眾對(duì)此持批評(píng)態(tài)度。大學(xué)里有很多針對(duì)聲援巴勒斯坦的鎮(zhèn)壓行動(dòng)--即使是來(lái)自猶太學(xué)生的聲援。在德美兩國(guó)的感受相似嗎？

A : We face our own forms of McCarthyism here in the United States. But it’s not as severe because we have succeeded in staging more of a public debate. In previous years, the voices of Palestinians and the solidarity movement were swept under the rug. But now they are being heard and we have a more balanced debate. I hope something like that will emerge in Germany as well.

答：在美國(guó)，我們也面臨著麥卡錫主義。但沒(méi)有那么嚴(yán)重，因?yàn)槲覀兂晒Φ剡M(jìn)行了更多的公開(kāi)辯論。前些年，巴勒斯坦人和聲援運(yùn)動(dòng)的聲音被掩蓋了。但現(xiàn)在，他們的聲音被聽(tīng)到了，我們有了一場(chǎng)更加平衡的辯論。我希望德國(guó)也能出現(xiàn)類似的情況。
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Q : Here in the U.S. we have a large and politically active Jewish population — much larger than in Germany. For decades, the most prominent Jewish voices have been straightforwardly pro-Israel. But in recent years, organizations like Jewish Voice for Peace and Not In Our Name have let Jewish people come out as critics of Israeli occupation. Bernie Sanders is the most prominent Jewish politician. He had been a strong supporter of Israel, but he has changed — lots of people are changing. Some people thought he was too slow to call for a permanent ceasefire, but now he has.

問(wèn)：在美國(guó)，我們有大量活躍于政治領(lǐng)域的猶太人--比德國(guó)多得多。幾十年來(lái)，最著名的猶太人一直直截了當(dāng)?shù)刂С忠陨小５陙?lái)，“猶太和平之聲”和“不以我們的名義”等組織讓猶太人站出來(lái)批評(píng)以色列的占領(lǐng)。伯尼-桑德斯是最著名的猶太政治家。他一直是以色列的堅(jiān)定支持者，但他變了--很多人也都變了。有些人認(rèn)為他在呼吁永久停火方面動(dòng)作得太慢了，但現(xiàn)在他已經(jīng)做到了。

A : Pro-Israel forces like AIPAC are losing control of the narrative. And now, with the carnage in Gaza, the voices of critical Jews have been amplified. In Germany, in contrast, everybody is talking about Jews, but not with us.

答：支持以色列的力量，如AIPAC（美國(guó)以色列公共事務(wù)委員會(huì)），正在失去對(duì)敘事的控制。現(xiàn)在，隨著加沙大屠殺的發(fā)生，批評(píng)猶太人的聲音被放大了。在德國(guó)，與此相反，每個(gè)人都在談?wù)摢q太人，但不是跟我們談。